Daily Kos

Batten the Hatches: the coming recession

Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 04:34:03 PM PDT

In this week's testimony before congress, Fed chief Alan Greenspan described it as a "conundrum."

What was he talking about?  The looming specter of the Inverted Yield Curve.

For several months now, the Fed has been slowly raising interest rates to put the brakes on signs of increasing inflation.  But a funny thing has been happening on the way to the bank.  While the Fed increases have brought up short term rates, long term rates have continued to fall.  For both loans and investment vehicles, long term rates and short term rates are now nearly the same.

The magic "inverted yield curve" occurs when these two rates cross and short term interest rates are actually higher than long term rates.  Why is this more than a piece of economic trivia?  Because the inverted curve is the best known predictor of a coming recession.

Want to see how nice a job the yield curve does at predicting upcoming trouble in the economy?  Take a look at this chart from TheStreet.com:

Notice all those downticks in the curve?  Like the one that appeared just before the last Bush recession in 2001.  And the one that hit Poppa Bush just before he was steamrolled by the Big Dog.  And the whole horrid mess that the economy suffered in the late 70's, early 80's is clearly visible.  So is the "Whip Inflation Now" era of the early 70's.  You have to go back into the 60's to find a spot where the curves crossed, but the economy didn't crash (in that case, we came to a "soft landing" and merely had a couple of years of essentially zero growth).

From the chart, you can see that we've not yet reached the point of crossover.  In fact, we're still at a point that's... well, not great, but not horrible.  A decent spread.  But we're going down.  Take a look at how many times this chart records a rate curve moving down at the point we're at today.  Then take a look at how many of these pulled out before the crossover - very damn few.

When absolutely no sign of a slowing in the gap closure, we appear headed for a crossover in the next six months to a year.  

Money men are shocked and puzzled by the current outcome.  See, for the last four years, the Fed has looked like wizards at keeping the curve high and the economic stimulus at a "goosed by an electric cattle prod" level.

The current move back toward a flatter curve is unusual in two respects. The first is its starting point: The Federal Reserve's grand experiment from 2001-2003 produced the steepest yield curve since the start of the Fed's H15 weekly series in 1962. The results of the aggressive monetary stimulus in 1991-1992 are dwarfed in comparison.
 
See, the Fed has bled the tank dry for Bush, and it worked.  What would have otherwise been an extended recession was turned into a long stretch of mere economic blahs by keeping rates so low that Americans were tempted to borrow themselves into oblivion.  Now the curve is flattening faster than at any time in recent history, and Alan and the boys seem to be doing some head scratching.
The second difference is the speed at which the flattening has occurred. The Federal Reserve has raised the overnight federal funds rate six times since June 2004, and the federal funds futures market is pricing in another three rate hikes by the end of this summer. These increases are reflected in the short end of the curve, represented above by both the one-year and the two-year notes.

The Fed would like to keep the rates low in an effort to pry the curve open, but there's a problem with that.  Last month's wholesale inflation rate was 0.8 percent, much higher than expected and a sharp increase from the previous month.  With that kind of rise, the Fed is caught by its own "raise the rates to starve inflation" theories.  Alan had no choice but to tick the dial up another notch this week.  The stock market took this news hard.  It was only down marginally for the week, but the real unease was masked by rising drug stocks that caught a big tailwind when the FDA advised returning Vioxx and kin to the market.

While our own stock market pundits remain for the most part chipper, playing their role of worshipful acolytes to he-who-can-do-no-wrong (Bush or Greenspan, take your pick), the folks up on Canada's Howe Street seem a lot more downbeat about stocks, the dollar, and damn near everything else.

Stocks have been rallying since last October. That rally could end at any time...and might be ending now. When the upward momentum on this plane runs out, passengers will find a lot more downside that upside. That is, at these levels stocks have much more room to fall than room to rise.
...
The dollar is extremely vulnerable. Buffett and Gates are betting against it, and they're probably right. Which is why you don't want to leave too much money in U.S. assets of any sort, including U.S. Treasury bonds.

What are they recommending?  Buy gold.  Whenever stock advisors start saying buy gold, things are not good.

For an audio discussion of the topic, check out NPR's Market Place.

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Permalink | 112 comments

  •  I took 20K (none / 0)

    out of Fidelity funds last month and bought gold.  I've also taken a cash position in my 401K plan.

    This market is not going any higher.

    "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

    by Steven D on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 04:32:38 PM PDT

    •  Let's see if I can be that smart (4.00 / 3)

      I sat through the last one, and have just now edged past breakeven (I'd be in much better shape if I hadn't sold that Apple stock last year, it's made a seven fold increase in 12 months, but I was an idiot and got out with only a marginal gain).  

      This time, I've got to be brave enough to not weather the storm, but take some action to protect myself.  I'm getting too darned old to face another one of these things.

      Just think: it's not a recession for every Bush you elect, it's a fresh recession for every Bush term.

    •  Out of curiosity (none / 0)

      since I don't have any investments or stocks or anything, being as I'm just a student and make crapola. What does that mean when you say you 'bought gold?'

      Do you have...like...a stockpile of gold sitting in your cellar now, covered over with old newspapers and a warning to the kids not to look under the daddy's newspapers?

      ;p

      My signature beat up your signature.

      by Stand Strong on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 04:48:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Standard way to buy gold is to buy (none / 0)

        established 1 oz. coins like the South African Krugerrand. One can also buy bullion (that is, bars). It can be held at a deposit company or in a safe deposit box at a bank or buried in the back yard. I looked into this myself about two years ago, and I'm kicking myself that I didn't put everything into gold at that point. I've lost money on stocks in that time, but I could have made 40 percent so far on gold.
        •  I'm curious (none / 0)

          I honestly don't "get" economic stuff, so please be gentle with me.
          Couldn't you have protected yourself just as well by investing in something like hedge funds? What in the world can be done with gold bullion, that wouldn't be subject the same bank and market issues as, say, bonds?
          I hate it that I'm so confused by this stuff, but I'd greatly appreciate any help you all can give me understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each investment option - including real estate (which tends to be where I feel most comfortable when the notion of investing wisely comes up).

          Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.

          by Kimberley on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:21:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  One idea (none / 0)

            what in the world can be done with gold bullion

            You can pretend to be a pirate?
            Yar!

            •  I'm doin' that already (none / 0)

              I don't wear this parrot on my shoulder and the eye patch for nothing.

              Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.

              by Kimberley on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:34:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Why Buy Gold? (none / 0)

              The short answer is: Gold's value is incredibly stable.  Just as a for-instance, right now, old is $426.00 an ounce.

              That will buy a rich man's business suit perfectly well.

              In 100 AD, 1 ounce of gold bought a richly decorated Toga.

              Basically, if you are getting into Gold, it means you think there will either be deflation, or that there will be very rapid inflation.

              We have no desire to offend you -- unless you are a twit!

              by ScrewySquirrel on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:49:05 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Well... (none / 1)

            The main argument for gold is that George Bush can't print more gold to pay for his wars and mismanagement. People start talking about gold (and other alternatives) when they lose confidence in a government's ability to responsibly manage it's currency.

            When a currency starts losing their value, people (everyone from Bill Gates to Joe Schmoe) don't want to store their savings/value in that currency. Gold has historically been a reliable alternative, because it is a fairly finite supply, easily storable and durable (unlike a silo of oats), fairly safe from counterfeit/fraud risk, portable (unlike real estate), divisible (unlike paintings for instance) and fairly liquid (many buyers and sellers worldwide from small to large scale).

            Other commodities can also conceivably be instruments of storing value, each with various pros and cons. The idea is to flee the localized environment of irresponsibility/risk--not to make a great amount of profit--although that will happen if there is a panic/collapse. But even most goldbugs understand that the chaos from a true panic is pretty undesirable and don't pray for it.

            Anyways, the rise in gold over the last two years has mirrored the decline in the dollar almost perfectly. If you factor out the decline if the dollar, gold has basically stayed flat. That stability is what people want when they stop trusting the US (or any other currency-issuing government.)

            As to how various other instruments compare to dollars, that is a complex subject. But regarding bonds, they are just a kind of loan denominated in a specific currency--and are thus very sensitive to the health of that currency as well; regardless of whether the entity receiving the loan is a high-risk or low risk venture. Does that make sense?

            Anyways, good luck and I encourage you to actively educate yourself about economics. It can be a very fascinating subject.

            •  Thank you (none / 0)

              Yes, the thing I was angling at (without using the proper terminology) was liquidity.
              I appreciate you taking the time to explain some of this to me. It's intimidating but, as you said, fascinating.

              Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.

              by Kimberley on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 01:22:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You can buy gold right on the Nasdaq (4.00 / 2)

          GLD is the ticker symbol.
        •  '... buried in the back yard' (4.00 / 2)

          Uh, what's your address?
      •  Gold stocks/funds (none / 0)

        It might sound odd, but you can also buy gold stocks and gold funds.  In addition to owning gold bullion, these companies are involved in gold extraction, processing, etc.

        I am all for freedom of speech...it makes it easier to identify the idiots.

        by Mote Dai on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:19:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  buying gold (none / 0)

        You can also buy gold on the NYSE, ticker GLD or IAU.

        "I would ask the walls about it, but they vanished overnight"

        by emmanuel on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:06:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  At the small investor level (none / 0)

        you buy into gold through mutual funds that invest in gold for you.  Don't pay a front-end or back-end "load" or fee.
    •  Gold (4.00 / 3)

      has never been a great investment. This piece from the New Yorker talked about it a few months ago.
      •  No commodity purchase is a growth investment (none / 0)

        Gold is a commodity, not a growth investment.

        Gold is, however, an excellent store of value.

        When people recommend buying gold in times that seem to be leading up to an economic crisis, they are essentially saying that inflation or hyper-inflation is a big danger.

        If you already have wealth and want to try to dodge the financial bullet, then putting your money in gold can preserve its value.

        Why? Inflation is literally currency losing its value (in terms of purchasing power). Transfer your wealth from one denomination (dollars) to another (gold) if you think dollars aren't a safe way to store your wealth -- that is, if you think high-digit inflation is a looming hazard.

        Every financial decision has risks, though...

        If one was so paranoid about the economy collapsing that you put all of your money in to gold, you might lose out on growth investment opportunities while your cash was tied up in yellow metal.

        If you put $10k in gold, that's $10k you don't have available to put to work elsewhere. You'd be passing up all those potential opportunities in order to take advantagfe of the perceived safety of gold.

        "... if you wish to know how libertarians regard the State and any of its acts, simply think of the State as a criminal band..." -- Murray Rothbard

        by bradspangler on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:02:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Wow (none / 1)

      I took 20K out of Fidelity funds last month and bought gold.  I've also taken a cash position in my 401K plan.

      I can't wait until I am in a postion, perhaps at some point in the far off future, to actually worry about what to do with the money I have instead of the opposite.
      :-)

      Back on topic though... Why do you believe that the market "isn't going any higher"?  Do you have reasons beyond what the author of this diary stated?   Oh, and author of this diary; ace, very interesting.  Recommended!

      www.idisagreewiththegop.com

      •  Massive debt (none / 0)

        all held by the Japanese and Chinese, who are starting to talk of moving out of dollars and into Euros.  If they stop buying our treasury bonds this economy could go very quickly into a Depression imo.  And Bush'd fiscal policies make it worse, especially if his privatization schemes get approved by Congress, which btw have to be financed by more debt.

        And remember, they want to make the tax cuts permanent.  If they do that, the debt gets much worse.

        Add in our trade deficit whgich has never been higher and I think you can start to see the picture is not very rosy.

        "I just had the basic view of the American public -- it can't be that bad out there." Marine Travis Williams after 11 members of his squad were killed.

        by Steven D on Mon Feb 21, 2005 at 08:51:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I've been considering cashing in my 401K (none / 0)

      for about a month now. My husband doesn't want me to do it, is worried about the taxes on it, but I think it we wait, it won't be worth anything. It's not a lot of money, but why waste money, ya know? I think I'm going to do it this week.
      •  No! (4.00 / 3)

        I'm sorry, but I think that would be the absolutely wrong thing to do. You will be destroyed on the taxes.  You will have to pay the full tax at the time of withdrawal plus another 10% on the pretax total.  You could loose 40% or more on the current value.  Just move your 401K funds out of the market and into cash funds or some other low yield, low risk setup.

        www.queenofthequeens.com

        by Thom in SF on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:56:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A suggestion (none / 0)

        Cashing it out only makes sense if you need the cash now for immediate expenses/consumption. Otherwise you are going to pay quite a bit in taxes.

        It is probably better to use that 30-40% tolerance for loss and put it in managed funds designed for very-low risk,or even a fund designed for bear-market/shorting strategies. If gold appeals to you, you should be able to buy it without cashing out to buy the physical metal--or taking the tax hit. It is unlikely any losses will surpass the tax hit you are comfortable with, and you will still have possible upside.

        Dollars in hand might make you feel more safe in the short term but, emotions aside, that is just a 100% allocation of your savings in a single instrument. Probably a very poor instrument if the dollar breaks further as many are concerned it will.

        Talk to a professional or do research yourself. Going with your gut isn't wise unless you understand the various options available to you. Good luck.

    •  I moved everything (none / 0)

      to international funds.  I'm not going down on the financial ship, too.

      wondering if I should take the cash I like to keep on hand, in case of a terra attack, and buy other currencies...

      No matter how cynical you get ... you can never keep up.

      by LegalSpice on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:05:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Same here. (none / 0)

        I put about 60% of my 401k into funds that invest antirely in foreign companies. Funny, the wealthy Republicans I work with did the same right before I did. They all voted for Bush, but cashed out.

        Signature Impaired.

        by gttim on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:38:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  International funds are one way to go (none / 0)

        Export-oriented companies (or funds) are another.  If the dollar tanks, many American exporting companies should do relatively well, as our huge trade deficit begins to right itself.

        Some gold seems prudent, as a bet, but I wouldn't go overboard on it.  Shifts in gold holdings by central banks (ours, for instance, if things get really shitty) can make this a tricky market.

        In really bad times, such as the coming likely period of stagflation, cash is king.  Pay off debts, liquidate most long stock positions, shorten up bond investments, and hold safe cash instruments.  Downsize living expenses wherever possible, before you're forced to do so involuntarily.

        Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

        by Dallasdoc on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:46:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Driving us off the cliff.... (none / 0)

    This administration is behind the wheel of a Hummer and driving us right off the cliff.

    And there is also no way to account for what another attack might cause--and yet even they say that is only a matter of "when", not "if"....

    I figured I had until this summer to bail out of my stocks, but I have already started.  This was also in part due to the predictions by Seymour Hersh, who predicted the Iran invasion for the summer.

    Hmmm....isn't that an interesting coincidence, 6 months to a year on the recession, time to call a war!  Look, over there, bad muslims!

    Gold, here I come....

    •  I jsut watched (none / 0)

      Bill Daley, (Chicago Mayor Daley;'s son, and  former Clinton Budget Director(?), and a real estate mogul by the name of Zell, on CNBC. They were going on about how stable the economy was and how much money was being made in real estate and corporate earnings. I also saw Clinton's former Treasury Sec (can't remember his name right now), on c-span a couple of days ago, and even his rhetoric was toned down in terms of the economic outlook. Wonder what's up.  

      "conservatives are the worshipers of dead radicals".

      by gandalf on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:31:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Daley's BROTHER...Not son. n/y (none / 0)

        No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. ~Edward R. Murrow

        by mlkisler on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:46:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Real estate (none / 0)

        in Phoenix AZ is (and has for over a year) been going nuts.  It is so bad now that within hours of a house going on the market, there will be at least two offers, both over market and often in cash.  Propertie's values are doubling annually.  I spoke with my realtor about this.  She told me an agent she spoke with recently who was in the market in the 80's said it is exactly the same now as it was then.  And then, when the recession kicked in rates went up, folks couldn't pay, banks foreclosed and the market was awash in cheap property.  
        •  I believe it. (none / 0)

          I put off buying until I see what happens down the line. I am gambling on interest, but in a few years, I will have a much bigger downpayment.

          Signature Impaired.

          by gttim on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:40:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  the phoenix indicator (none / 0)

          some of it could be the huge popolation shift from the coast to sunny phoenix.. but I was in phoenix in the early 90's to see the effects of the RE bust.   Depressing is too kind a word.  Whole office buildings standing empty, took until 95-96 for things to start looking normal again.

          If Phoenix is a reliable indicator, watch out.

          "..we've got to make it look like an accident."

          by cdelia on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:07:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Californian's (none / 0)

            have been moving here since the quake and fires in the 90's...this is different.  These are investors cashing out of the market and buying land.  

            Until recently many would buy a spec home and sell it the week it was finished coz the home would acrue about 10% just in the months it would take to build it.  There is now a law requiring that the buyer live in the place for at least a year; the state had to do something to help local folks who were finding it increasingly hard to buy a home; our average income is below the national average enough so that we couldn't compete with outsiders for our own homes!

            There are alot of rental homes and condos on the market right now, from these investors buying and waiting for interest rates to go up and folks no longer being able to finance mortgages, who will then need to rent.  It feels a little like watching 'gators taking position on the shore as a weak deer flails around in a shrinking flood pool...creepy.

  •  Glad you diaried this... (none / 0)

    I heard about it on NPR, but couldn't spend the time listening...Recommend from me!

    Dudehisattva...

    "Generosity, Ethics, Patience, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom"

    by Dood Abides on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 04:42:31 PM PDT

  •  Recommended (none / 0)

    A few observations

    First, the long-end is surrently under buying pressure from pension funds because of a new regulation regarding their asset/liability mix and method of calculating liabilities.

    Secondly, the long-end of the market market sold in a big way last week.  I have no idea if that trend will continue.  Some of the sell-off was a reaction to Greenspan's statements.  However, the Import Price Index came in a +.8% on Friday, so the fear of inflation may be moving through the markets right now.

    Third, the long-end was under buying pressure from curve tightening trades (people buying the long-end while borrowing short).  Some of these trades are unwinding now, although I have not seen any figures regarding the total volume of these trades.

    "You think you can intimidate me? Screw you. Choose your Weapon." Eliot Spitzer

    by bonddad on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 04:56:50 PM PDT

  •  At this point... (none / 0)

    ...would buying gold be better than converting some savings to the euro? Or will fees be too high? What about my 401K's? Should I talk to my fund manager about investing most of what I have in International/European stocks?

    The sleep of reason produces monsters.

    by Alumbrados on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 04:58:12 PM PDT

  •  question (none / 0)

    what if your invested in an Annuity which has a contracted minimum the annuity is worth?  I have not done anything, I figured this contracted annuity is as secure as I can get.  But am I wrong?
  •  More info on yield curves (4.00 / 2)

    Smart Money has a nice little tutorial on the yield curve.  (The part in italics is my emphasis).  The excerpt below is about an inverted yield curve, but they also discuss the flat yield curve.

    At first glance an inverted yield curve seems like a paradox. Why would long-term investors settle for lower yields while short-term investors take so much less risk?

    The answer is that long-term investors will settle for lower yields now if they think rates -- and the economy -- are going even lower in the future. They're betting that this is their last chance to lock in rates before the bottom falls out.

    Our example comes from August 1981. Earlier that year, Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker had begun to lower the federal funds rate to forestall a slowing economy. Recession fears convinced bond traders that this was their last chance to lock in 10% yields for the next few years.

    As is usually the case, the collective market instinct was right. Check out the GDP chart above; it aptly demonstrates just how bad things got. Interest rates fell dramatically for the next five years as the economy tanked. Thirty year bond yields went from 14% to 7% while short-term rates, starting much higher at 15% fell to 5% or 6%. As for equities, the next year was brutal (see chart below). Long-term investors who bought at 10% definitely had the last laugh.

    Inverted yield curves are rare. Never ignore them. They are always followed by economic slowdown -- or outright recession -- as well as lower interest rates across the board.

    The link is here.

    •  Sorry to rain on your parade (none / 0)

      but the link clearly says "One Bond Strategy". I wouldn't bet the farm on this theory without talking to an investment advisor you trust. You may be able to get worse economic advice than some of the stuff downthread, but you'd have to give it a little effort.

      As far as long term rates, that is easily explained. Long term rates aren't going up because fed rates are still below neutral. Until the fed rate gets to the 3% to 3.5% range, long term rates are not going to rise significantly without other indicators. Look for very strong jobs numbers or other signs of inflation to back this single indicator before you move any significant assets.

      It's always a good idea to have a balanced portfolio and this is a good time to avoid exposure. Gold or any other commodity is a risky venture. Gold could drop 30% almost overnight.

      Uninformed decisions made from either panic or irrational exuberance are as likely to be wrong as right. Unless you are a day trader, stick with a balanced portfolio. Move your assets to an inflation hedged fund with the advice of your financial advisor if you are so inclined, but don't bet your retirement or the kids education on gold.

      Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

      by JollyBuddah on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:34:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It is a sign of no confidence in stocks (4.00 / 3)

    The magic "inverted yield curve" occurs when these two rates cross and short term interest rates are actually higher than long term rates.  Why is this more than a piece of economic trivia?  Because the inverted curve is the best known predictor of a coming recession

    I am no expert on this, but let me try and put a human side to this difficult dairy.  I am a very conservative investor, and I basically only invest in same state Muni Bonds.  Over the last 4 years as the fed killed short term rates, every bond that I had that could be called, was!  That was not a surprise.  What I did when I reinvested the called funds was to go way out to try and get at least a moderate rate of return.  

    Finally finally about a year ago, the feds started raising rates, and I had hopes of some decent % bonds soon showing up on the market.  Guess what, long term rates have continued to go down to the lowest levels I have seen in 30 years.  What is going on here?  Why are state and local govts able to borrow money for so long a time span at so low a rate????

    Well, like everything else it is a supply and demand world.  There are more investors looking for safe investments than there are bonds available, so the investors are buying low even long term.  Why should state and local govts pay any more than the market will take.

    In other words, many people are too scared of investing in stocks and are willing to take paltry rates even long term to keep their principles safe.  Muni Bonds are very safe because they are backed by the taxing authority of the state or municipality.  

    That is a no confidence sign in the private sector economy, pure and simple, IMO!!

  •  question from an economic ignoramus (none / 0)

    What's the causal relation between yield curve cross over and economic downturns? I mean, obviously there's a correlation here, but why?

    Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

    by brainwave on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:16:28 PM PDT

    •  Low Confidence (4.00 / 3)

      If you read my post above on muni bonds, you may get some ideas on this.  It is all perception based that causes this, but usually perception means something.  

      I am no expert, but rates are determined by supply and demand.  No borrower wants to offer more interest rates higher than absolutely needed to get someone to lend them funds.  As someone else has said above, if longer term investors are willing to take lower rates on their investments, then they do not see other investments doing better for a long time.  This is a no confidence vote, and if these investors are savvy, they are predicting economic trouble is on the way!  Evidently historically, these long term investors are savvy!!

    •  Typically (none / 0)

      a yield curve has lower rates at the short-end of the curve and higher rates at the long-end of the curve.  The reason is long-term investors incur more risks.  If I loan you money and you pay it back in 10 days, I am not taking a great risk.  But if you will pay it back in 10 years, there are allot more things that can go wrong.  For example, you may go bankrupt, etc....

      Short-term rates rise when the Federal Reserve starts raising interest rates like they are now.  Typically, long-term rates rise in conjunction with short-term rates.  The risks for long-term investrors are still there.  They still want to receive more compensation for the longer risk they are taking.

      When long-term rates are lower then short-term rates it may mean several things.

      First, it may be due to technical factors in the markets.  The yield-curve was inverted in 99-01 because the Treasury discuntinued issuing 30 year treasury bonds.  Therefore, 30-year treasury bonds were going at an extreme premium.  Today, there are a large number of carry trades in the market -- bond investors are borrowing short and buying long to make the difference.

      Secondly, it may also mean that long-term traders are not concerned with inflation.  Inflation lowers the rate of return on all investment.  A bond investments real return = interest rate - inflation rate.  If inflation is low, bond investors make more money.

      Third, it could mean that the Federal Reserve has jacked up interest rates to stem-off inflation.  This happened in 79-81.  Money market accounts were yielding iin the 20% range.

      "You think you can intimidate me? Screw you. Choose your Weapon." Eliot Spitzer

      by bonddad on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:59:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hm.... (none / 0)

        Okay, thanks... but doesn't that mean a crossover can have reasons that have nothing to do with an impending down turn? And if that is so, then what's your assessment of the current situation?

        (And btw, about your signature line - did he really say that?)

        Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

        by brainwave on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:14:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Vice versa. (none / 0)

          As I read it, the accuracy of the yield curve as a predictor is independent of whatever theory best explains it.

          Therefore, if you're inclined to believe that an economy based on borrowing against ever-expanding home equity has a limit, and that limit has something to do with Chinese export policy, you would see this as confirmation that the moment has arrived.  Cortes who took credit for a solar eclipse, too.

  •  question... (none / 0)

    I have an embarrassingly high amount of personal debt - mostly on credit cards (although it's all locked in at 4% on those cards - not 18+ as the college debt I started with was).

    I own my home and officially have about 10K in equity (bought for 40K owe just under 30K - BUT home values have done some nutty things around here (KS) and between value added (siding, redid attic space, added a 1/2 bath, etc) and the market - it wouldn't surprise me at all if we could sell for 60 to 70K.

    that would be enough to pay of nearly all our debt.   In light of the coming recession (which while not nearly financially savvy to understand all this stuff, I tend to agree is all but certain) - what sort of moves might I make.

    (note - we have some in savings in long term fixed plans at above market rates that were from rolled over 401Ks from wife job change / canceled plan at my work and we have a tidy sum accumulating in whole life policies - but neither of these are really liquid - call it meager retirement savings starts... so we haven't been complete money morons (well, since college anyway :-)  

    mid 30's with 2 kids in elementary school (why yes - college does make me nervous... - oh and I'll probably go to seminary about the same time (gee - 3 "kids" in college my wife says...)

    Should I continue to focus on paying off my stupidly high debts?

    Might I consider selling the house - or is it something better to hold onto?  (given that we will likely move due to seminary / subsequent pastoral positions in 5-6 years anyway...)

    Obviously I won't do anything rash and will hold no one accountable for advice given on vague data

    - but thought the financial guru types might have fun playing with a case study and I might benefit from the discussion.

    Join Soulforce-seeking Justice for God's GLBT children.
    Time to change the mindset - Obama 'O8!

    by its simple IF you ignore the complexity on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:18:59 PM PDT

    •  If you have the discipline to never, (none / 0)

      ever, run up the credit card debt again you should consider a home equity loan. It will require an appraisal of your home, so you can settle the question of your home's value, and you'll be able to deduct the interest.  Also, no matter what happens your rate is locked in.

      On the other hand, if you think you'll run up those credit cards again don't consider this option.

      "Rupert Murdoch Loves Hillary Clinton"--CBS News headline.

      by Thistime on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:46:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've figured (none / 0)

        that the 4% I'm locked in at on the cards is as good and maybe better than the rate I'd get on an equity loan.  I've also figured that if I did that (let's say the house is appraised at 60K) - and the housing market burst - I would wind up being in worse shape (debt against an asset with depreciating value so I'm trapped).

        oh - and I think I read about willpower in a book once....   (maybe that should be reason a that I haven't done it.)

        thanks.

        Join Soulforce-seeking Justice for God's GLBT children.
        Time to change the mindset - Obama 'O8!

        by its simple IF you ignore the complexity on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:23:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You might check out Motley Fool (none / 1)

          They have some discussion boards over there focused on people trying to reduce credit card debt, and almost anything else you can think of.
        •  Except (none / 1)

          The interest on a home equity loan is tax deductable.  Whether you could get a home equity loan interest rate to match your 4% credit card rate is another matter.  You should find out what rate you could get on a home equity loan, figure in the tax deductability based on you income level, and compare it to what you're paying on your credit card.  The decision should be easy once you do the math.

          This aggression will not stand, man.

          by kaleidescope on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:35:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  First off (none / 1)

          If you sell you home, where will you go? An apartment?  You "own" the home meaning you are paying a mortgage for it.  Stay.  As for your debt, ALL debt is bad, even "good" debt like mortgages.

          My suggestion would be to cut your credit cards now, as you read this email, set aside ANY AND ALL money you are considering for "investing" and instead pay down your debt then cancel your cable TV and work on cutting your expenses as much as possible.  The less debt you have and the higher cashflow, however small it may be by cutting your expenses will be that much more in the black you are when the bottom falls out.

          I call these economic upheavals social shakeouts.  The elite and wealthy want to hold on to their own.  They would rather take a 20-30% hit on their net worth and see the majority suffer financially as a result than risk losing it all by changing their destructive policies and desires for the common good.  You don't see record profits at ALL these companies, oil companies, specifically for nothing do you?

          $85 BILLION in profits by the oil companies alone.  Wonder what gas prices would be at if they weren't so cash fat in profits, huh.

          Anyway, this diary is right on.  There is a recession coming but it's possibly going to be rougher than that.  Foreigners are now realizing we are in a downward spiral of higher trade and budget deficits such that our own paper is looked at with skepticism for the first time in generations.

          My wife and I both put as much down on our own home as we possibly could when we bought it.  We still have our mortgage and student loan debt, but NO credit card or other debt.  Yea, I hate my "good debt" we have a plan to pay it all off within 10 years.  The only way to do that is to cut expenses, invest in your mortgage which GUARANTEES you a return equal to your mortgage rate (try getting a guaranteed rate in the stock market) and try to save as much after that as you can.

          It's harder if you have 1 income and all but no one has a gun to their heads to waste money unless you want to.

          Cut those cards if you have trouble.

          •  I took a house buying course.... (none / 1)

            before investing in a two-family that I now co-own with a friend.

            One point that the instructor made was that if all hell did break loose, it would take longer for the bank to catch up with you on mortgage default than it would for your landlord to put your ass to the curb as a renter.

            Banks have a lot more legal hoops, and more interest in keeping you as a paying customer.  

            This made my slightly-reluctant co-owner friend feel better about having money tied to the house, rather than continuing to rent.

        •  Not a financial expert... (4.00 / 2)

          But I have paid off huge debt in the past...twice.

          First time was when I was married...took us 4.5 years to get rid of 65K debt. I got a second job, we went on a STRICT budget, stopped referring to the ATM machine as 'the money machine' and my mantra for the entire time was 'is it a want or a need'?

          2nd time was this past year and thankfully the debt was not that much...am single now, in sales and thanks to GWB my industry hit close to rock bottom.

          So I took out a home equity loan, paid off my truck and my one credit card, my dental loan and my laptop.  Now I have one mortgage and a 2nd mortgage, and that's it. And  I only use a debit card.

          Also took in two roomates, got rid of my landline and I am very thrifty these days.

          To give you an idea of the housing market in my area (So Palm Beach Co, FL) I bought my house for $187K two years ago tomorrow...and similar homes are now going for $300K.

          Used to live in Silicon Valley so I know a bit about how high housing markets grow.

          Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

    •  Hoo boy (4.00 / 2)

      Let me say that I'm not a certified financial planner of any sort and am completely unqualified to give individual advice.  I'm just an individual with an academic interest in economics and how it overlaps with politics.  Believe me, if you could see my own portfolio, you'd want nothing to do with any advice from my direction.

      You hear that, FTC?  I am not telling people what to buy.  Please put down the taser.

  •  So the only thing that has saved us in the past (none / 1)

    4 years is an increased rate of consumption fueled by debt.  We will never escape the threat of economic upheaval until we move to a system that is not reliant on ever increasing levels of consumption.
  •  I believe this is a coming crisis (none / 0)

    My understanding of financial markets is minimal, but my understanding of international politics is stronger. One big factor in all of this that could make a huge impact one way or another is China.

    They are on their way to having the largest economy in the world. They are playing a much larger role on the international stage including huge infrastructure projects in third-world countries. These projects are not out of altruism, but instead are things like a railroad in Brazil to help get raw materials out of previously unreachable areas. China's appetite for raw materials is the fastest growing in the world. They surpass even us in some areas like iron for steel production.

    While connected to our economy in many ways, they are not our "friends" but our direct competitors. They see this as finally getting back to the level of dominance in the world they once had. (Up to the mid 18th-century, China was the most sophisticated, advanced, powerful country in the world. Many outside of Asia forget that, but not the Chinese)  

    I'm still not sure what to do personally for this coming crisis. My mortgage is long-term and very low interest, my job is as secure as you can get these days and my debt is very low. I also have a good 25+ years to retirement. Unfortunately, because I left school later in life, my investments are few but widely scattered. I need to consolodate my investments (I have five seperate 401K accounts as a result of a rollar coaster ride of employment during the bubble) and I'm not sure just what to do with them. Cash? Euros? I hesitate with gold because the price has gone up so much and I don't want to buy on the up-swing when I have no idea of what I'm getting in to.

    Whatever is the right thing to do, the next five to ten years or so will not be pretty.

    Plane Crazy
    Looking for advice but not knowing where to turn.

    Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, work when people are watching. - Dogbert

    by PlaneCrazy on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:28:35 PM PDT

  •  Kondratieff Wave (none / 0)

    Look it up. I seriously recommend it. We're overdue for a recession and we've been artificially propping up our economy, which, inevitably, makes it soooo  much worse. In other words, "we're so fucked." C'mon the average government lasts no where near as long as we have.
  •  So many factors (none / 1)

    But a few come to mind.

    We "dug" ourselves out of the latest trouble by incredibly low interest rates that allowed people to supplement earnings with borrowings and equity.
    Consumer debt is now at an all time high of 120% of earnings !

    that's right, consumers owe 120% of what they earn. Massively up historically.

    Secondly, to go hand in hand with that, while corporate profits are up, earnings arent. Those profits which historically have flowed to workers havent this time around.

    So we have a looming consumer/worker crunch. huge levels of debt with rising interest rates, and a significant transfer of wealth from work to investment.

    there is no way this can continue on this track for much longer, not only are we heading for a deep recession but possibly a revolution too.

  •  I think a recession is coming (none / 0)

    I actually posed this to a business VP recently, and he didn't disagree.

    Other signs of problems: stock market was down in January, traditionally a sign of weakness, expensive consumer goods are way down (cars), houses are actually up but it has signs of a bubble (locking in rates before they spike).  I'm no economic expert (o.k. I'm not even an amatuer), but I think it's scary.  However, there are still some signs pointing up: employment, interest rates, inflation.

    McCain: Less jobs, more war.

    by Unstable Isotope on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:43:33 PM PDT

    •  on the other hand... (none / 0)

      employment: looks good because the long term unemployed aren't measured in the unemployment rate. I've read that the actual unemployment rate in this country is closer to 10%.

      inflation: the government understates inflation. They make things called "hedonic" adjustments - a car may cost twice what it did 20 years ago, but they are so much nicer (gps, anti-lock brakes, etc.) that they offset the price increase with your "increased value" from that product. It's a shady way of making price increases stay off the official government books. I don't know about you, but the things I buy (houses, milk, gas, health insurance, etc.) have exploded in price in the last five years.

      interest rates: they may be low now, but it seems like we are on the cusp of them exploding upwards. See what happened to the 10 year bond this week. We were at 3.98 then popped to 4.26! Huge move.

      "I would ask the walls about it, but they vanished overnight"

      by emmanuel on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:35:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It will, of course, be Bill Clinton's fault. (none / 0)

      OK that was a bit of a snark, but they will likely try bizarre word games to pin Clinton with that line of fuzzy logic anyway.

      Now the thing about employment is that many of the jobs being "created" are in gov't. The party of small gov't is not living up to its reputation of olde. Another problem is that, as workers are downsized and otherwise layed off, the jobs they end up getting instead are very often lower-paying.

      So, many people becoming unemployed and then re-employed do so at lower pay. They have a lower standard of living, pay less taxes to keep the entire system running, and the economy continues its slow spiral.

      He has oil. He tried to kill my daddy.

      by kensa on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:08:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the saying used to be (4.00 / 8)

    that democrats always took us into war and republicans always took us into recession/depression. now the republicans will be able to claim credit for both.

    We get a lot of advice. We tend to listen when somebody's won something. - Joe Lockhart

    by yankeedoodler on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 05:45:05 PM PDT

  •  asdf (none / 0)

    I posted in an open thread that someone with more financial intelligence should diary this. I'm glad you did.

    In language even I could understand:

    http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2005/02/18/PM200502181.html

    Teaser Quote:
    A report today shows wholesale prices going up 3/10 of a percent. This is not good news for a couple of reasons. First, if wholesale prices go up, consumer prices can't be far behind. Second, well...it has to do with interest rates. Investment advisor Gabriel Wisdom says we need to understand what the 'inverted-yield-curve' is. We were reluctant to go into this, but...well, We're gonna have to use language some Marketplace listeners may find offensive.

  •  When that recession arrives ... (none / 0)

    ...Bush & Crew will blame Clinton.

    I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain

    by Meteor Blades on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:09:28 PM PDT

  •  Will this be (none / 0)

    a hold-your-breath short recession or a long hang-on-by-your-fingertips rececession? I can stand anything if it's temporary!

    THE BUCK STOPS AT BUSH!

    by jhewett on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:31:00 PM PDT

  •  recession into depression (none / 0)

    I wonder about the chances of that. The inflation rate doesn't adequately measure things that the lower quintiles spend their money on .. i.e. food, and fuel. If it did it would be much higher. Saleries adjusted for inflation have dropped for this same group. The current banrupcy rate is very high. Confidence is quite low. Seems to me that we could enter freefall.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 06:34:42 PM PDT

    •  Energy... (none / 0)

      I'm afraid of some event disrupting crude or gasoline distribution. There are a lot of choke points. That coupled with financial fragility made me order a book on high-yield backyard gardening (Cubed Foot Gardening). Make of that what you will...

      We have always been at war with Eurasia

      by NotSoFast on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:14:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Such as... (none / 0)

        ...oh, say, a full (and long overdue) OPEC embargo against the United States?

        Or failing that, simply changing oil pricing from U.S. dollars to Euros?

        •  No need for a political embargo... (none / 0)

          ...a geological one would be just as sufficient, and is essentially guaranteed within the next couple years (due to Peak Oil; there's a reason those words are capitalized).

          Once Saudi Arabia is confirmed to be in depletion (note that they keep saying they'll raise production, but don't actually do it, and continue making up excuses why they didn't), we'll have past the peak, and then it's all downhill from there for capitalism.  No growth economy in the world can survive a terminal reduction in energy, let alone the US economy with its current debt load.

          Anyone up to speed on PO wanna take a bet on when SA's Ghawar field will crash?  I'm guessing within the next 18 months.  After that, buckle up.

        •  No need for an embargo or other political acts (none / 0)

          How about these:
          • Iran is bombed, responds by shutting down Hormuz
          • somebody else manages to attack a tanker in Hormuz
          • Suez canal gets shut down (and/or the pipeline from Red Sea to Med), tankers will need to go around Africa - capacity tied down
          • hurricane takes out refineries in Texas and/or Louisiana
          • hurricane destroys Venezuelan ports
          • serious civil unrest in Saudi Arabia

          All of these will put pressure on prices. Some more than others, apparently Saudi is the only producer with extra capacity right now, so any news from there will be bad...

          See http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/security/

          We have always been at war with Eurasia

          by NotSoFast on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 11:47:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  In addition to gold or instead of gold (none / 0)

    buy Silver. Why? Its possible there is less of it around than gold. I recommend reading the last few pieces by Ted Butler  He lays out the case for there being less silver around than gold here

    Mr. Butler's basic point is that the price of silver is not based on supply/demand fundamentals, rather it has been manipulated by a few large trading houses and banks who have been able to get a stranglehold on the silver futures market plus "leasing".

    He wrote the following in February 2001:

    "It is this relentless depletion of silver, both below and above the earth's surface, that makes silver so special. No commodity, in the history of the world, has ever seen such a prolonged (50 years) severe depletion of both the above and below ground supply. We are truly running out of a vital commodity. All we have to do is look at the deficits. A 100 million ounce deficit means 100 million ounces of above ground inventories have disappeared. The only thing missing is a sharply higher price to confirm the disappearance, close the deficit and stop the silver inventory hemorrhage.

    The trick to financial gain is to recognize when the price of an item fails to reflect its true economic condition and the reality of abundance or scarcity. Just look at the evidence. We have the lowest level of world silver inventories in hundreds of years. At the same time, we have the greatest number of consumers, and potential consumers, in the history of the planet. And, even though inventories of silver are the lowest in hundreds of years, we have hundreds and thousands of modern industrial applications requiring silver that didn't even exist 50 years ago. That means we have the lowest inventories, at precisely the moment of history's greatest demand.

    We consume one and a half ounces, for every ounce we take out of the ground. How long can that continue (at current prices)? We are depleting both above and below ground resources at an alarming clip. Yet the price ignores the overwhelming evidence of an ending that could resemble a high speed crash into a concrete wall.

    Statistics document that in the past decade alone, we have chewed up over a billion ounces of silver. These aren't my statistics that I am reporting. They come from sober, establishment organizations, like the Silver Institute. There's no disputing that a billion ounces was taken from inventory and destroyed through industrial consumption. We have a billion ounces less than we did 10 years ago. All because we consume more than we produce.

    At today's prices, the silver deficit should continue unabated and continue to grow. That means at least another billion ounces disappearing from inventory over the next ten years. But no one can document a billion ounces in inventory, or anything close to that amount. How can the world consume another billion ounces if there's only a couple of hundred million ounces left? It can't. That's the concrete wall at the end of the story.

    There's only one way out of this box. The world must cut consumption and increase current supply. It can't consume inventories that don't exist. There is no other way. And, in all of God's world, there is no way to increase supply and decrease demand other than by raising the price. Only a massive increase in the price of silver can assure the balancing of supply and demand in silver."

    •  Computer parts!!! (none / 0)

      Computer parts are a treasure trove of precious metals - gold, silver, copper, platinum...  If you can get old, broken-down motherboards, etc. from a flea market (or dumpster-diving), it might be worth selling them to a computer-part recycler and reinvesting the money in silver (or gold) bullion.

      Just thought that might be an idea worth throwing out.  You'd have to do some dickering as far as the price of those parts is concerned, in order to make it worth it, but it goes without saying that you'd be looking at the daily price of said metals anyway, right?

      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

      by The Peanut Gallery on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:43:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree... (none / 0)

      However, please understand that one of the world's biggest silver consumers - the motion picture industry - will probably be completely finished with the substance within the next ten to fifteen years as it forsakes film for high def video.

      Eastman Kodak has already begun phasing out much of their film for still photography, and its enormous motion picture division (one Hollywood movie generally shoots about half a million feet of 35mm negative) will be downsized over the next decade or so to the point at which it will support only the archiving of movies on celluloid. We've been flirting with this in Hollywood for quite some time, but the common wisdom out here is that the sad, soulless shift to digital is finally going to happen. It's already happened with still photography.

      So, even if you don't know where to put your money right now, take solace in the fact that at least you haven't dumped your entire fortune into starting up a one-hour photo operation.

      (If you have, I'd get out now.)

      Democrats: For the health, prosperity and security of every single American.

      by alysheba on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:15:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Phase out of silver from film (none / 0)

        I agree that certain users of Ag, like the motion picture industry, will phase it out eventually. But the whole world won't be moving to digital anytime soon because of the upfront costs, especially in the developing countries. What could be cheaper than a 24-pic "throwaway" (recyclable) camera? The digital alternative, at least for home users, is to have the digital camera($200-$1,000), a PC($1,000), the photo software($0-$200), a decent printer($200-$500) and photo paper. And don't forget, glossy photo paper contains silver.

        Again here's the question posed to Butler :

        "Q Another argument against silver is that digital cameras will abolish film and greatly diminish silver demand. What's your view?

        A As I have written in the past, digital photography is a wonderful technology that is here to stay. But so is conventional silver-halide photography. Or, stated differently, it will be around longer than anyone alive today. There is no question that digital photography is growing fast, and conventional photography is currently not growing at all. But you have to put these things into perspective. Even in the very visible amateur photography category, more than 90% of all the pictures taken worldwide are done on conventional silver-halide cameras. The lack of fast growth in silver-halide photography, which is an extremely large and mature industry, is a problem for Eastman Kodak. But that shouldn't lead one to assume silver photography is dead. In fact, there has been a remarkable development in the digital-analog debate.

        Q What's that?

        A The emergence of silver film photography as the low-cost alternative. When digital photography was introduced, some 20 years ago, one of the chief advantages was the cost savings associated with not having to buy film and avoiding film development costs. But, have you noticed the price of film lately? Due to competition and production advances, it's really come down in price. They sell it in 4-packs, and you pay $1.50 a roll, compared to $3 to $4 a few years ago. I just bought a top of the line Kodak Max 27-exposure, disposable camera, with flash for $6, at the local supermarket. While the price of digital cameras has come down, the add-ons (software, computer power, printers and photo paper) have made digital photography a very expensive luxury. It's something that will be out of the reach of developing nation populations for decades to come. And even if cost is left out, it is still very difficult for a large percentage of the population (including me) to mechanically handle all the digital functions. Even when my wife gets digital photos from family and friends, she has it put on a CD and takes it to the photo store for prints (on silver photo paper). Silver-halide photography, in addition to being a heck of a lot cheaper, is a lot simpler than digital. That's not going to change."

  •  another one? (none / 0)

    I live in the rust belt. Its been a constant recession here since we outsourced everything to China.   Welcome to our World.
  •  I'm cashing in my 401K...... (none / 1)

    To buy farming implements, seed, and goats.

    Especially goats. They'll eat anything.

    ( just kidding, I don't have a 401K )

    About the goats......

  •  Ahhhh.... (none / 0)

    Perhaps this explains why many Republicans were so bullish, insisting that the economy was doing just fine. Following this chart until quite recently makes their claims actually look modest...

    You've got to be cou-ra-geous, to play the odds that love will win. Whatever city you're in. Was / Not Was

    by Noodles on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:16:20 PM PDT

  •  The ride (none / 0)

    An economy expands when people see reasons to build out productive capacity, borrowing/investing in the here and now
    If they no longer see the purpose of that, they don't invest now and instead keep money long in the future or far away geographically
    Similar logic for consumers, they borrow/spend now, if cash flow is good and they see some value in the purchases

    The money supply was pumped up and interest rates kept low for a few years
    That must end now to control inflation.
    People's security fear level has fallen, but their debt has risen and economic prospects are only so-so.
    With rising rates, high debt, some inflation, and not great wage rises, consumers will spend what they need to, but not excessively

    There is no great point in building productive capacity in the US now

    The side-effect is if the economy is not grown and we don't produce/export our way out, then we must inflate or devalue our way out of the trade imbalance; and/or radically cut biz costs and thus govt costs.
    The Radical Repubs are trying to manage the train wreck so it happens in a fashion which suits their ideology.
    Alternatively it will just be a wreck.
    Private interests could increasingly be invited in to take over bankrupt govt functions, and allowed to charge high fees for services.
    Another way out for them may be to turn over a wrecked state to a Dem in 4 years, just as the crisis has become fully clear and with few options left.

    •  Patrick Buchanon (none / 0)

      wrote something similar back in the American Conservative magazine back in October in explaining why he was not supporting GWH's relection. He also wrote that the coming mess would keep the republicans out of the white house for decades as it did after Hoover.

      H.L. Mencken: "A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"

      by igneous on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:51:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Global or Local? (none / 0)

    Maybe this time the Chinese will use their excess capital to spend their way out of a recession (in combination with some timely investment changes).  It will be interesting to see whether we will drag down the asian economy or just bring it down from hyperspeed to freeway speeds.  

    They may actually get a boost out of lower oil prices brought on by a US recession.  

    •  How do you figure "lower" oil prices... (none / 0)

      ...when we're staring at a severe oil shortage in the next few years?  That usually drives prices up, and given that it's oil, it'll be prices on everything, regardless of whether people can pay for it or not (if they can't, everything will just be shipped elsewhere, where they can pay...)

      Life After the Oil Crash has some very interesting information on that one.

      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

      by The Peanut Gallery on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 07:48:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lower may be a relative term. (none / 0)

        If we have a global depression -- production may actually exceed demand in the short term and fuel growth in those countries that still have cash on hand (Asia, Russia, etc.).  

        If we have stagnation -- oil prices will not rise as fast as they otherwise would.

        If we have a booming economy -- we will quickly find out how much excess capacity OPEC really has.  We may hit the wall fast.  

        ----------
        As a petroleum geologist, I'd say we're very close to an oil crash but how soon it actually happens will depend upon the global economic situation.

  •  Gotta hurry those private accounts... (none / 1)

    After all, a rush of money out of SS treasury Bonds would do the following:

    Lower demand for LT bonds,pushing up rates.
    Increase the stock market by prividing a new "inflow" of constant investment into the Bush-Co deemed "safe" investments.

    In other-words, a quick SS privatation would potential delay the danger of a looming recession for another year or two, enough time to squeeze in another war or two and maybe even a tax cut.

    Anyone notice that this is all tied together?  It makes the Administration is not waiting on the Republicans in Congress who said "go slow", and are not going to wait to make this an '06 midterm issue.  They've got to hide/delay the recession.

  •  Inflation (none / 0)

    The Fed quotes two numbers for inflation at the consumer level.  The CPI and the so-called "core rate."  This core rate is the CPI less "volatile food and energy."  So in actuality, the "core rate" includes things like  televisions, dishwashers, supercomputers, private jets and bulldozers.

    What I want to see is a chart of the inflation rate from 1900 using only food and energy.  I'll bet that would be very revealing!!!

    It is no accident that Liberty and Liberal are the same word.

    by Sorceress Sarah on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 08:46:20 PM PDT

  •  Really well written, Devilstower. (none / 0)

    I just wanted to comment that I really liked the way you wrote that. While a lot of the diaries are simply "Check out this bullshit ->link to NYTimes Editorial".

    You're article was informative and educational while also very fun to read.

    I look forward to more of your posts as the resident Financial Analyst on Daily Kos.

    Bravo!

  •  but (4.00 / 4)

    why does the yield curve hate america?

    "I've opposed this war since it was just a malignant smirk on George Bush's face." -- Billmon 10/18/06

    by tsurube on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 09:25:14 PM PDT

  •  What are you talking about? (none / 0)

    We turned the Corner last fall when Dear Leader stated that "We have turned the corner", also John Snow the Money Guy stated, "There was no Recession and it was a lie".

    Tax Cuts for everybody....no... the rich... is always the cure for anything anyway.
    So what are you talking about and why do you hate America?

    "These guys are biggest bunch of lying crooks I have ever seen" John Kerry

    by alnc on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:13:31 PM PDT

  •  What Is An "America?" (none / 0)

    With production galloping offshore, among other factors, I have to wonder how much past predictions based on much more self-contained nation-states apply accurately.

    I don't see any reason to doubt that we're screwed, but I guess what I'm wondering is, who is the "we" that's screwed?

    And who isn't?

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:15:29 PM PDT

  •  decipher? (none / 0)

    I have a gentleman's knowledge of such things, but could a finance insider please decipher this bit of snark?  

    *Who knows? The battle between the trend-followers and the regression-to-the-mean crowd could be the warmup act at Armageddon. Maybe they will tag-team with representatives of technical and fundamental analysis.

    Devilstower, thanks for the heads-up and please, keep it coming!

    "..we've got to make it look like an accident."

    by cdelia on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:39:49 PM PDT

  •  uncertainty (none / 0)

    Deviltower,

    Please tell us more about the "uncertainty" injected into the market - this graph at The Street is alarming ~ and it fits well with the rest of the Bush admin. MO in every other policy area ~ deliberate disruption, mixed signals, uncertainty and misdirection.

    "..we've got to make it look like an accident."

    by cdelia on Sun Feb 20, 2005 at 10:56:12 PM PDT

    •  Uncertainty (none / 0)

      My best take is that with the recession that hit at the start of 2001, and then the Sept. 11th attacks, fear has been the dominant note on Wall Street.  Despite hordes of delusional day traders, stocks are intrinsically a long term investment, and right now no one seems to have a handle on the long term.  Cash is moving in and out of the market much more erratically than in the past.

      I think what we're seeing is a lot of people putting chips on the table and trying to hold a smile, but all the time they are wearing their track shoes and are ready to sprint away from the game at the first sign of trouble.  As Bush has discovered, it's a whole lot easier to scare people than it is to reassure them, and people are scared.

      Please note that I hope I'm completely wrong about this whole diary.  I hope the curve recovers, the market stays strong, employm